All,

I'd like to make some tables for crossing rivers, since this was a risky business in the ancient world. I'm thinking of something like this:

Roll PRUDENT or RECKLESS before rivers in flood.

MODIFIERS to rolls below.:
Normal: 0
Light Flooding: +5
Heavy Flooding: +10

ROLL d20:

1-13: Safe crossing
14-17: Minor loss of goods/chattel (Value: 4d6 x 10 denarii).
18-19: Major loss of goods/chattel: (Value: 1d3 £)
20: Catastrophic loss: All of the above, +roll d20, below:


CATASTROPHIC LOSS:

1-13: 1d3 Domestic animal(s)
14-17: 1d3 Horse(s)
18-19: 1d3 Minor NPC
20: Major NPC (Roll d6: 1-3: Child, 4-5: Wife, 6: PC)

Other possible tests that could have consequences:

Boating
Horsemanship
Carting (for CNPC Carters)
Swimming


The above was very hastily put together. I'd love your thoughts to help expand and/or refine it.


Thanks,


T.

Roll PRUDENT or RECKLESS before rivers in flood.

Which of the following patterns would you use here?

(i) Player chooses which trait to test, then test the other one if the first fails
(ii) Player chooses one trait to test and you take the result you get
(iii) GM chooses which trait to test, then test the other one if the first fails
(iv) GM chooses one trait to test and youyou take the result you get
(v) Test the highest trait first, test the lower trait if the first test was a failure
(vi) Test both traits as an opposed roll and you take the result you get

What are the consequences for the test? Delays? Tests vs Hunting (to find an alternative route yourself) or Folklore (to find a local who can show you the way)? Modifiers to the rolls on subsequent tables? Others?

Regards
Luke

I was going to reply to this and then promptly forgot to do so...

Not all river crossings are so dangerous. The fords that see common use would be more or less safe. I probably wouldn't even roll for those, unless there is something special happening, such as a knight riding hard across the ford, or trying to push through the commoners at speed. Or, as you have identified, there is a flood, which would make the fords much more treacherous. But in general, no one in their right mind would use a river crossing routinely that results in a loss of a major part of their livestock / movable goods, or even their lives.

Then again, what you might have had in mind was crossing a river elsewhere than at a ford. In which case, I can totally see problems for the travellers. I would include modifiers for the width and the current, too. A gently moving narrow river would no doubt be much easier to cross than Severn at a tide... I'd likely allow a Hunting roll to try and identify a 'best possible' crossing, maybe giving an additional bonus, while a fumble gives penalties.

Thanks, guys!

@Morien: Yeah, regarding the danger — I did provide a 65% chance of nothing at all happening, and only a 35% chance of any consequences at all, skewed highly to just the inconvenient.

What brought this on, is my wife's PK is about to move house from her little manor to a full-on estate located in the next county. There are three or four river crossings between here and there and my campaign notes are that there's been a lot of heavy rains this year. So I want to create some risk and adventure in this major event in the PK's life. My research reveals that drowning was one of the most common forms of accidental death in medieval times (I think followed only by horse accidents). People generally didn't know how to swim, so not much has to go wrong to result in some sort of loss. This is not for streams, creeks, or brooks (although people died even in those) but for full-on rivers where there's not a bridge, which would have been the vast majority of crossings in the Early Phase of the campaign. Even wooden bridges were pretty rare in this era, and they weren't the most stable platforms in the world. Ferries were the go-to solution and my tables could represent the dangers of ferry crossings as well. People can fall off, horses can freak out, etc, etc.

Thanks, for the feedback, guys. I'll reply more later when I've had a chance to integrate some of these comments.


Best,


T.

Taliesin, it becomes down to the repeated attempts and the combined probabilities. You said that there are four crossings?

That works out as:
18% of nothing happening at all.
34% of at least one minor mishap, but nothing worse than that.
29% of at least one major mishap, but nothing worse than that.
19% of AT LEAST ONE catastrophic loss.

And this is moving ONCE from one county to another (neighboring?) one, without adding any flooding modifiers. Presumably using the best roads and fords available at the time. Add flooding, as your words about heavy rains seems to indicate, and it becomes actively ruinous and suicidal.

Thanks for computing those losses for me, Morien. A few thoughts here:

The PK can always choose to wait till the rivers are more manageable. They can try for a Prudent roll, etc. to avoid altogether.

Even a catastrophic loss may only be some domesticated animals, or a servant.

I think the odds for something unfortunate happening have to be generally higher than real-world stats, otherwise it's difficult to create any challenge or drama in the crossing.

But I hear you — I'll try to work this out some more this evening, perhaps. Additional comments are most welcome.


Best,


M.

Taliesin, let me try to ask my main question again...

Will you roll on that table when conditions are normal and the PK is using the regular fords to cross the rivers?

If yes, then that is how I was reading it, and that is what I was commenting on: it is way too harsh. And waiting doesn't help since the conditions are already as good as they are likely to get, unless there is a draught.

If no, that you'd only roll on that table when the situation is atypical, rivers running high with rain, maybe a storm raging and panicking the animals, strange fords and what not, then I don't have a problem with it. Smart folks would stay at home and let the weather clear. But then you seriously should change the names of the modifiers to something else, especially Normal. And include a clarification that you are only talking about atypical situation. :)

By looking at the tables and reading what Taliesin says, I'd guess its *not* meant for regular use.

Player knights usually dont travel with family and livestock. Unless they have been raiding.

"Normal" 15% chance of losing d3 librum would be bit over the top for PK traveling with his squire and few horses, that should have appropriate saddlebags and packs.

Personally I'd rather make them roll for horsemanship, accidents happening on fumbles.

As for the system needs a scale/multipliers for different sizes of entourages/caravans.

If you want to make it in a sort of adventure I would handle it as follows:

the PK makes a Prudent vs Reckless roll.
If Prudent wins he can choose the following paths:
- Find an alternative and less dangerous road or a bridge (through hunting or folk lore). The alternatives could be a modifier on the roll or if a bridge is found none at all.
- Wait until the floods subside. This will take a long time and thus he needs to either camp out or return to his old manor. He needs to keep his people together if he goes camping (handle some disputes) or even fight of some bandits, who think you are fair game). This also could cost some money to do.
- He can still try to cross, but now knows what danger he brings to his people.

If Reckless wins he will try the crossing you can use your ideas. He could try to get some boats or rafts, but again this requires a Folk lore test. If a significant loss occurs he can try and save the person, but must roll boating, swimming or horsemanship to succeed (with the penalties).

Since he needs to cross several rivers you can have him roll for each crossing. If the first river caused a significant loss you could give him a +5 Prudent for the next crossing.

Sorry I'm so late in returning to this, guys. Been crushed with work.

Thank you all so much for the ideas. I might be playing this out tomorrow night and this was just the kind of feedback I was hoping for.

I'm interested in the perils of overland travel — in addition to the standard encounter tables of bandits and bogeymen. A sort of mini-game that might offer interesting skill tests that don't often get used otherwise. The logistics of food and river crossings can make interesting challenges for a knight traveling with his entourage. I should have included modifiers to the roll for the size of the retinue, and maybe the size of the river, as well as the conditions. That means I can have lower, but cumulative, penalties.

I'm interested in what's lost — money, time or life. Perhaps I should reflect some possibility of a gain, particularly of time, with a Critical Success.

In my case, a PK is moving house from his manor in Salisbury to his new estate in Hantonne. He has to move his whole household, including all his goods and much of his furniture. So, wife, children and servants are all coming along. Most of these have to walk. And I've established the fact that there's been a lot of heavy rains and rivers may be swollen. Time is an issue because they can't carry enough food to stay on the road for long and they need to take over management of the estate.

In the Early Phase of the campaign, stone bridges would be very rare indeed. Most times you'd have a rickety wooden bridge or a ferry — when you have anything at all. So anything can happen. I know my original mathematics didn't model reality very well, but I don't want to make the possibility of a real loss so rare that it never happens. This is an adventure game, after all, so I think the risk for peril should be higher than normal. But I think I can handle that by revising the modifiers, as stated above.

Let me synthesize this and refine it a bit.

Thanks again,


T.

Okay how's this? Please make suggestions; I'm all ears!



RIVER CROSSINGS

Crossing a river is not without risk, and often not without cost. Before starting out the player should declare how much provisions he's going to take along. How many days will he be able to sustain his entire retinue (including horses). Then keep track of the days.

In the Early Phase of The Great Pendragon Campaign, wooden footbridges are the rule and may be found spanning even significant rivers — when they're found at all. But expect them only on Royal Roads and, somewhat less frequently, Trade Roads. London has two great wooden bridges in the Early Phase, wide enough for a carts to cross.

Heavy flooding can sweep away wooden bridges and in the northern reaches of Britain ice flows can take them down as well. During or immediately following such extreme conditions roll a 1d20 to see if the bridge your knight was planning on using is still there. On a natural 20, he'll have to find another way to cross.

Travelers will find wooden bridges in various states of repair. The wooden bridges of the Royal Roads are, as a rule, well-maintained by the King, who collects the tolls. But Trade and Local bridges become increasingly dodgy. Roll 1d20 when crossing such bridges with a +1 modifier for Trade roads and a +2 modifier for Local roads. Rolling a modified 20 means someone in the party — a randomly determined person or animal — has to make a Dex roll or get wet. Hilarity may ensue, or things could get dicey if the Gamemaster decides Falling Damage, a Swimming roll — or both — are required.

Wooden bridges can also be purposefully destroyed to impede enemies or defend towns. A wooden bridge is never a guarantee.

The great age of stone bridge building begins in the Middle Phase, specifically the beginning of the Romance Period (see the Book of the Estate for more on this new Phase) and even then is limited mostly to Royal Roads connecting county towns with London. Logres' other great stone bridges — such as those at Exeter and Rochester — are not raised until the Tournament Period, about 540. Stone bridges are not commonly found on Trade or Local roads until the advent of the Twilight period, about 558.

Lacking reliable bridges, the usual way to cross is by ford, ferry or boat. Fords are (usually) free for all, bridges, ferries and boats are not. Both secular and ecclesiastical lords will charge a toll for safe passage by any of these means. Expect to pay a 1 halfpence pontage for each person in your entourage and 1d for each cart if crossing by bridge. The toll for packhorses is a farthing (.25 d.). Tollhouses are run by bailiffs or other minor officers and may be enforced by 1d6 Footsoldiers, Spearmen or Swordmen (or some combination of these).

Ferries and boats can usually be hired of 1-2d per crossing by boat or ferry, depending on what the traveler looks like he can afford and how long the crossing takes (depending on the river's width).

Ferry boats are wide, shallow, square-browed boats capable of carrying two horses and riders or up to six people, or two carts and two carters. Ferries often have a rope spanning the stream to provide easy navigation to and fro.

Rivers up to three feet deep maybe forded with relative ease. But the same rivers in flood are not passable on foot, though they may be on horseback. Of course this requires a successful Horsemanship roll. Failing this roll requires Swimming rolls and a fumble may result in loss of the horse, plus anything it was carrying.


RIVERS IN FLOOD

Upon hearing of dangerous conditions at a given crossing, the player has a choice to make. He may choose to make a Prudent or Reckless roll to determine his next course of action, based on need, etc..

If Prudent wins, the player may choose one of the following paths:

1.) Search for an alternative and less dangerous road or a bridge. Use Hunting to find an alternative route or Folklore to find a local guide who can show you the way. Compare the Hunting or Folklore roll to these tables:

Hunting
Critical Success: You find a safer route and subtract 1 day from the number of days rolled
Success: You find an alternative route in 1d3 days
Failure: You do not find an alternative route in 1d3 days or you find an alternative route that's no safer than the last one. Take your chances crossing (roll on the Crossing Table below), try again, or ask a local for help.
Fumble: You find an alternative route in 1d3 days, but it's no safer than the last route. In fact it's more dangerous. Add +3 on the Fording Table roll, below should you try to cross.

Folklore
Critical Success: You find an alternative way in less than 1 day. It's even safer than the original route, and doesn't require a toll! -5 modifier on the Fording Table, below.
Success: You find an alternative way in 1d2 days. It is safer than the original route, but you have to pay another lord's toll, and probably a little something for your guide. Take a -3 modifier on the Crossing Table, below.
Failure: You can't find an alternative route in 1d3 days. Try again? How's your food supply holding out?
Fumble: It's a trap! You're lured to the lair of some desperate outlaws!


2.) The player may choose to Wait until the rains stop and the floods subside. This could take a long time (4+1d6 days) and thus he needs to either camp out or return to his old manor. Provisions could become an issue. The knight needs to keep his people together if he goes camping (handle some disputes), feed them (Hunting rolls) or even fight off some brigands, who see the party as vulnerable).

3.) He can still try to cross, but now knows what danger he brings to his people.


If Reckless wins he will brave the crossing. He could try to get some boats or rafts, but, again this requires a Folklore test and at least one day — and probably some expense, as described above. If a Catastrophic loss occurs he can try and save the person or animal, but must roll Boating, Swimming or Horsemanship to succeed.

RIVER FORDING TABLE (1d20)

Modifiers:

Conditions
Normal: 0
Light Flooding: +3
Heavy Flooding: +5

Size of Party/Retinue
1-10: 0
11-30: +3
31 or more: +5

Size of the River
Small river (3' deep or less, 100 ft wide or less): =3
Normal river: (6ft deep or less, 100 ft to 100 yards wide): 0
Large river (8 ft deep or less, 100 yards wide or less): +5
Great river (More than 8' deep, more than 100 yards wide) +10

Speed of River
Lazy, Slow: -3
Normal: 0
Fast: +3
Torrent: +5


Results
1-13: Safe crossing
14-17: Minor loss of goods/chattel (Value: 1d20 s.)
18-19: Major loss of goods/chattel (Value: 3d20 )
20: Catastrophic loss: All of the above, +roll 1d20, below:

Catastrophic Loss:
1-13: 1d3 Domestic animal(s)
14-15: A sumpter along with goods/chattel (Value 1d20)
14-16: A rouncy
17: A warhorse
18-19: 1d3 members of your entourage (determine randomly)
20: Major NPC (Roll d6: 1-3: Child, 4-5: Wife, 6: Squire)


CROSSING BY BOAT

The boatman must make a Boating roll. Assume proficiency (Boating 15) for ferry operators, but only competence (Boating 12) for impromptu guides found through Folklore rolls. Use Conditions and Speed modifiers only.

Critical Success: The passage is made without incident, and much quicker/easier than expected.
Success: The passage is made without incident.
Failure: The boat starts taking on water or some other mishaps occurs that makes the boatmen head back to shore. You may have to bail water. Alternatively, the boatman loses his hold on the rope/pole/oar and starts drafting downstream, with no way to steer the craft! Or perhaps someone falls in and needs to be rescued before the boatman can return the craft to the shore.
Fumble: A horse gets spooked, the boat hits a rock, or an overladen raft capsizes. Either way, everyone goes into the drink. Swimming rolls all around or roll on the "Results" table with a +10 modifier.

Roll for each crossing. If the first river causes a significant loss the knight gets a +5 to his Prudent roll for the next crossing.

I think you have a typo in there, a shallow river should be -3, not +3.

Also, if that table is used only during flood time (as implied the whole Reckless/Prudent chapter title), then why have a Normal modifier? Unless you intend it to be used in all cases when a river is being forded and your earlier comment in the preceding paragraph intended to say that usually, 3' deep river is not a problem whatsoever, but if flooding modifiers apply, things might be different.

Secondly, and people who know better can feel free to correct me, but how many rivers are there in UK that are wider than 100ft, excluding estuaries? Which doesn't preclude from having modifiers for the estuaries as well, but what surprises me at times is how narrow the famous rivers are. For instance, here is the Severn at Shrewsbury (admittedly quite upriver from the estuary): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SevernFromCastleCB.JPG
Here is the Ouse at York:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ouse_York.jpg

And the Test River, the 'major river' between (Pendragon's) Salisbury and Hampshire:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_River_Test_at_Lower_Brook_-_geograph.org.uk_-_306867.jpg
I mean, an insurmountable barrier it ain't. Inconvenient, I'll grant you, especially with wagons and such.

Also the width modifiers are confusing: a Normal River is everything wider than 100ft up to 100 yards, a Large River is everything less than 100 yards, and a Great River is everything wider than 100 yards. Methinks I doth see a typo somewhere in there. :)

Thanks, Moren. I wrote it all up very late last night after a long day and was pretty bleary-eyed when doing so. I'll correct the -3 typo and try to sort out the rest this evening. I did try to research the width of rivers in England a bit, but didn't have time to go that deep, no pun intended! I did not intend for the table to be used only during a flood — but whenever the Gamemaster wants to emphasize the danger of river crossings, or run a different sort of travel "encounter." Probably a Prudent check would only be required in the case of a flood, or some other extenuating circumstance. Otherwise you just roll on the Ford table. Will think on it more...


Best,


T.