Hi all,

This is something I have been tinkering with for a while now. The Simple system is something I have been thinking about ever since seeing the 'canonical' breakdown of £6 knight's fee in 4th Edition (£2 knight & squire, £2 horses, £2 family). The Complex system owes the inspiration to Book of Estate, and spurred on by Thijs' question in the Errata section of this forum regarding the maintenance.

Note, though, that while BoE was an inspiration, I am not doing the £10 / manor thing, but still using the old £3 / £6 / £9 / £12 method of the basic rulebook.

So, the simple system first.

Simple system:
Knight & Squire: £2
Horses: £2
Wife: £1
Children: £1
Impoverished: x0.25, Poor: x0.5, Normal: x1.0, Rich: x1.5, Superlative: x2

The effects are as in the rulebook (not reproduced here due to concerns of copyright):
Extra Glory: comes from the Knight's upkeep (this is to encourage players to splurge money on the knight's upkeep, too), i.e. if the Knight's upkeep is Rich, you get 9 extra Annual Glory.
Childbirth: mainly from Wife's upkeep, but +1 / Knight's improved upkeep.
Extra Squires: The Knight gets one extra squire at Superlative.
Child survival: depends on Children's upkeep.
Horse survival: depends on the Horses' upkeep, +1 / level above Normal (different from the rulebook).

In my experience, most players are most interested in increasing the childbirth modifier and the child survival modifier. Which means that they are getting it 'on the cheap' here: only a +£1.5 rather than +£3, and more significantly, getting the superlative for +£2 rather than +£6. This is a bit of a worry using the simple system, but given how much my players hate losing children, I don't think it would be an unwelcomed change. Besides... (putting my GM diabolical horns on) more surviving children means more daughters needing dowries and more sons needing armor and horses. ;D (Not to mention more spare PCs, which is very good from the dynastic side of things and to keep the players involved, IMHO.)

I'll detail the complex system in the next post, in order to make it more readable.

:)
I knew you would come up with system :)
In old simple system, you got +1 squire at Rich and +2 squires a superlative (which was the main motivation for bachelor knights).
You forgot concubine 0.5L [a very common phenomenon before marrying], and 1L steward instead of wife..

But perhaps lets first see complex system and then simplify that :)

fg,
Thijs

:)
I knew you would come up with system :)
In old simple system, you got +1 squire at Rich and +2 squires a superlative (which was the main motivation for bachelor knights).
You forgot concubine 0.5L [a very common phenomenon before marrying], and 1L steward instead of wife..


Yes, I know it gave more squires. I might go back to that after all, to give the knights, as you say, more of an incentive to go to higher level of maintenance. Thing is that it leaves precious little money for anything else.

Thanks for the reminder of the concubine and the steward. I'll add them to the Help section, even though I do not use them in my examples.

And am I really that predictable? :P

Foreword:
The complex system of maintenance was inspired by the Book of the Estate, but it is more compatible with the old £6 / manor system, and £3 for Poor, £6 for Normal, £9 for Rich and £12 for Superlative Maintenance, and the £2/£2/£2 division of Normal Knight maintenance. It also complies with normal knight upkeep being £1.25 and a squire £0.75, but the other numbers might not be in agreement with the Book of the Estate (don't have it here with me). I doubt I will chance things much. All costs & maintenances are in libra.

The 'Normal' family is assumed to have 3 children. The young knights starting their families will 'save' some money, while the older knights with big families will find their finances stretched more. I don't see this as a bug, but a nice feature, as it gives some slack to the newbies and then the older knights presumably have more loot, lands & investments to take care of the higher expenses.

Also, there is a bit of an inflationary pressure towards knights wishing to have the better horses... That -will- make it a bit harder for a 'one manor' knight to afford to keep a destrier, but then again, considering the price difference (£8 charger vs. £32 destrier), I doubt the maintenance price is such a huge deal. The knight riding a destrier is probably richer than the one manor knight. (If you don't like that effect, you can ignore the higher maintenance price for better horses in horse maintenance table.)

Caveat: This is a fiddly system, and it has not been playtested. I think it should work, but it is too much detail for my group (I know). They might take the simple system, but this is too much.

Caveat2: Formatting is a pain. I am sure there is a way to make a table, but I just cut and paste the excel sheet and then added spaces until it seemed to fit. I am sure the tables look horrible once I press Post.

Complex system

Horse maintenance
Breed Impoverished Poor Normal Veterinarian (only one needed, see Help)
Destrier 1 1,5 3 2 (needs to be more skilled)
Andalusian 0,75 1 2 1
Charger 0,4375 0,625 1,25 0,5
Courser 0,125 0,25 0,5 0,5
Rouncy 0,0675 0,125 0,25 0,5
Sumpter 0,0675 0,125 0,25 0,5

The Help Maintenance Effect
Squire 0,75 The usual squiring. Additional squire(s): +1 horse survival.
(Note: Squire + Rouncy = £1 maintenance.)
Lady's Maid 0,5 Helps the Lady & fixes clothing etc. +1 childbirth, clothing upkeep.
Maid/Nanny 0,25 Helps the Lady & takes care of children etc.
If Lady already has children but no Nanny: -1 childbirth & -1 child survival.
(If Impoverished or Poor and has a Nanny: +1 childbirth, +1 child survival)
Midwife/Nurse 1 Looks after the health of the children & the lady.
+1 childbirth, +2 child survival.
Veterinarian 0,5 – 2 Takes care of the horses. +1 horse survival. Only one needed for the herd.
Concubine 0,5 – 2 Mistress for the Lord, allowing for an extra childbirth roll for bastards.
+3 childbirth on £1, +5 childbirth on £2. (Remember £0.25 / child, too.)
Steward 1 – 2 Oversees the manor if the lord is unmarried. At £2, skill 16+.

Impoverished Knight family (2 children)
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Knight 0,25 1 0,25 Clothing, Armor, CON deteriorates, -2 cb
Lady 0,125 1 0,125 -12 childbirth, -13 if already has children
Child 0,0625 2 0,125
Charger 0,3125 1 0,3125
Rouncy 0,0625 2 0,125 (Normally sold by now and children fed!)
Sumpter 0,0625 1 0,0625 (Normally sold by now and children fed!)
Total: 1

Poor Knight family (2 children)
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Knight 0,75 1 0,75 Poor clothing, -1 childbirth
Squire 0,5 1 0,5 (if no squire, horse survival -5 and armor rusts)
Lady 0,5 1 0,5 -3 childbirth, -4 if already has children
Child 0,125 2 0,25
Charger 0,625 1 0,625
Rouncy 0,125 2 0,25
Sumpter 0,125 1 0,125
Total: 3

Normal Knight family (3 children)
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Knight 1,25 1 1,25
Squire 0,75 1 0,75
Lady 1 1 1
Maid/Nanny 0,25 1 0,25 See Help.
Child 0,25 3 0,75
Charger 1,25 1 1,25
Rouncy 0,25 2 0,5
Sumpter 0,25 1 0,25
Total: 6

Rich Knight family (4 children)
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Knight 1,75 1 1,75 +1 childbirth
Squire 0,75 1 0,75
Lady 1,75 1 1,75 +1 childbirth
Lady's Maid 0,5 1 0,5 See Help.
Maid/Nanny 0,25 1 0,25 See Help.
Child 0,5 4 2 +1 child survival
Charger 1,25 1 1,25
Rouncy 0,25 2 0,5
Sumpter 0,25 1 0,25
Total: 9

Superlative Knight family (4 children)
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Knight 2,25 1 2,25 +1 childbirth
Squire 0,75 2 1,5 See Help.
Lady 2,25 1 2,25 +2 childbirth
Lady's Maid 0,5 1 0,5 See Help.
Maid/Nanny 0,25 1 0,25 See Help.
Child 0,5 4 2 +1 child survival
Midwife/Nurse 1 1 1 See Help.
Veterinarian 0,5 1 0,5 +1 horse survival
Charger 1,25 1 1,25
Rouncy 0,25 3 0,75
Sumpter 0,25 2 0,5
Total: 12,75

Mounted Sergeant
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Sergeant 0,5 1 0,5 Commoner clothing.
Logistics 0,25 1 0,25 For stabling & armoury
Courser 0,5 1 0,5
Rouncy 0,25 1 0,25
Salary 0,5 1 0,5 For family and stuff.
Total: 2

Poor Mercenary Knight without family
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Knight 0,75 1 0,75 Poor Clothing.
Squire 0,5 1 0,5 Poorly attired squire.
Charger 1,25 1 1,25
Rouncy 0,25 2 0,5
Sumpter 0,25 1 0,25
Total: 3,25

Normal Household Knight without family
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Knight 1,25 1 1,25
Squire 0,75 1 0,75
Charger 1,25 1 1,25
Rouncy 0,25 2 0,5
Sumpter 0,25 1 0,25
Total: 4

Superlative Knight family with Destrier & Courser as the knight's riding horse
Maintenance Number Total Notes
Knight 2,25 1 2,25 Better clothing, Glory.
Squire 0,75 2 1,5 See Help.
Lady 2 1 2 +3 childbirth
Lady's Maid 0,5 1 0,5 See Help.
Maid/Nanny 0,25 1 0,25 See Help.
Child 0,5 4 2 +1 child survival
Midwife/Nurse 1 1 1 See Help.
Veterinarian 2 1 2 See Help.
Destrier 3 1 3
Courser 0,5 1 0,5
Rouncy 0,25 2 0,5
Sumpter 0,25 2 0,5
Total: 16

Clothing Maintenance
In a simple system, just assume that the clothing matches the upkeep level for that year.
In a more complicated system, the knight needs to buy the appropriate wardrobe if he doesn't have it, and then maintain it (or it drops by one level of quality).

Clothing Cost Expected Maintenance
Impoverished 0,25 Commoners none
Poor 0,5 Mercenary knight Included to Poor
Normal 1 Vassal or household knight Included to Normal, wife+0,25 or 0,5 on Poor
Rich 2 Banneret, Glory 8000+ wife, lady's maid + rich, or wife + 0,5 at Normal or 1.
Superlative 4 RTK wife, lady's maid + superlative, or wife, lady's maid + 0,5 at Rich, or wife + 1 at Normal or 2.

Cost is per knight or per lady.
Maintenance normally covers the whole family, but the extra payment is per knight or per lady. So for example, a knight with his wife have Rich clothing, but have Normal upkeep: (wife +) 0,5 * 2 = £1 extra payment. If they would have the lady's maid and Rich upkeep, no extra payment would be needed. Yes, this does mean that once you start peacocking around in fancy outfits, it pays to have the money to support an equivalent lifestyle!

Clothing makes the man:
If the PK's level of clothing is worse than expected for his class, the impression he makes at court and other social interaction is poorer. Easy suggestion: -1 to Social Skills / level below the expected. The opposite is true, too: finer clothes makes people assume that you are better than you are, and you gain a bonus of +1 / expected level.

Wife in rags:
So why not just upkeep the knight's clothing and leave the wifey in rags? Sonny, you have obviously never been married... Expect a sharp increase of 'headaches' and 'female complaints' or other methods for the wife to communicate her unhappiness (depends on the wife, of course). -3 childbirth sounds about right. Selfish check, too?

And am I really that predictable? :P

Yes, my experience is that everything I am thinking about, you are too... :)
It looks like our brains are entangled as photons (and just like photons we tend to go in opposite directions :)

fg,
Dr. Thijs

Clothing Maintenance
In a simple system, just assume that the clothing matches the upkeep level for that year.
In a more complicated system, the knight needs to buy the appropriate wardrobe if he doesn't have it, and then maintain it (or it drops by one level of quality).

Clothing Cost Expected Maintenance
Impoverished 0,25 Commoners none
Poor 0,5 Mercenary knight Included to Poor
Normal 1 Vassal or household knight Included to Normal, wife+0,25 or 0,5 on Poor
Rich 2 Banneret, Glory 8000+ wife, lady's maid + rich, or wife + 0,5 at Normal or 1.
Superlative 4 RTK wife, lady's maid + superlative, or wife, lady's maid + 0,5 at Rich, or wife + 1 at Normal or 2.

Cost is per knight or per lady.
Maintenance normally covers the whole family, but the extra payment is per knight or per lady. So for example, a knight with his wife have Rich clothing, but have Normal upkeep: (wife +) 0,5 * 2 = £1 extra payment. If they would have the lady's maid and Rich upkeep, no extra payment would be needed. Yes, this does mean that once you start peacocking around in fancy outfits, it pays to have the money to support an equivalent lifestyle!

Clothing makes the man:
If the PK's level of clothing is worse than expected for his class, the impression he makes at court and other social interaction is poorer. Easy suggestion: -1 to Social Skills / level below the expected. The opposite is true, too: finer clothes makes people assume that you are better than you are, and you gain a bonus of +1 / expected level.

Wife in rags:
So why not just upkeep the knight's clothing and leave the wifey in rags? Sonny, you have obviously never been married... Expect a sharp increase of 'headaches' and 'female complaints' or other methods for the wife to communicate her unhappiness (depends on the wife, of course). -3 childbirth sounds about right. Selfish check, too?


In the old system: Clothing halves in value each year, which means that each year you must 'pay' that half to keep up to date. However that means you have to keep track at what level a person lived last year and I hate bookkeeping (for simple systems).
Hence for simplicity, just add a maintenance cost for clothing... [clothing last 1 yr]
Let's remove all possible options (too confusing) and stick with default [and options can be added to descriptive txt later]
Also add maintenance for entourage and we are back to book of entourage... hmmm...
Also in book of estate we get some hints at maintenance (and maintenance of household knights) and which entourage the richer levels have.
Are we reinventing the wheel here?

fg,
Dr. Thijs

Whoever said that one couldn't reinvent the wheel? :p

I admit that this is a bit of that but I think it is different enough that some excel happy people might find it to be of interest. Like I said, it is way too much detail for most groups. But if someone really wished to model it down to denarius...

I agree that the clothing rules are a bit painful with the opinions, but I keep running into the issue all the time. Also I feel that rulebook rules are too harsh currently as it is an excess 0.5 Libra cost for a vassal knight. I am much happier to say that his wife takes care of that. But I will see about rewriting it a bit, make it simpler.

Rewrote Clothing:

Clothing Cost Expected Maintenance
Impoverished 0,25 Commoners none
Poor 0,5 Mercenary knight Included to Poor
Normal 1 Vassal or household knight £0,25 in materials, £0,25 in work
Rich 2 Banneret, Glory 8000+ £0,5 in materials, £0,5 in work
Superlative 4 RTK £0,75 in materials, £1,25 in work
Cost and maintenance is per knight or per lady.

Lady provides £0,5 in clothing maintenance work.
Lady's Maid provides up to £1 in clothing maintenance work.
Seamstress (£0,25 maintenance) provides up to £1 in clothing maintenance work.

In Normal, reduced Knight & Lady costs by £0,25 each and labeled that Clothing material costs. Lady covers the £0,5 in work. (Household knights get the work done by the Lord's servants (1 Seamstress / 4 knights is enough, so I don't worry about it.)
In Rich, reduced Knight & Lady costs by £0,5 each and labeled that Clothing material costs. Lady & Lady's Maid can easily cover the £1 portion of work.
In Superlative, reduced Knight & Lady costs by £0,75 each and labeled that Clothing material costs. Additional £0,25 taken from Knight's maintenance for the Seamstress' maintenance. Lady, Lady's Maid & Seamstress cover the £2.5 portion of work needed to maintain Superlative clothing for Knight & Lady.

Granted, it is still a bit fiddly, as I tried to keep the 'clothing degrades by half' rule and the 'grade of maintenance matches the grade of clothing'. If I'd be happy with Superlative having Rich clothing and having a 'Lordly' upkeep with £18 that has the £4 clothing, then I could easily go with an Entourage Seamstress and a bit more expensive materials.

So... I have been talking about making this compatible with the old £6 / manor system. What if I (or someone else) wished to use this with Book of the Estate?

Well, first thing to do is to realize that Book of the Estate IS NOT compatible with the old system where a vassal knight had Ordinary Knight upkeep (£6 / year). This is very obvious from the £10 Estate example, where the amount of money poured into the Lord's Household is £12 / year. Even stripping away servants (save the squire) and the chaplain, this is still £9 / year. So, at the VERY least, this is Rich Maintenance, and an argument could be made for Superlative, even. Given that the Vassal Knights have become 'rarer' in the new iteration as well, I am fine with the vassal knights being classified as 'Rich Knights'. One just needs to be aware of this difference.

With that in mind, if I wanted to do a quick-and-dirty conversion to BoE, I'd do this:

1) A manor, after all the servants and army (footsoldiers) and such that you need to provide from each manor, provides £10 / year for the Knight to support his family, his court and his knights.

2) A 1-manor Knight (£10 Estate) uses that money to support himself and his family as a Rich Knight (averaging £9 / year). In addition, he has a chaplain (£1/year, a bard for the pagans).

3) A 2-manor Knight (£20 Estate) needs to hire an additional household knight and a steward (or allow the hhk to marry), which usually costs £5-6 / year. This leaves £14-15 libra, which happens to be just enough to maintain himself and his family as a superlative knight + chaplain (+ possibly another entourage member).

4) A 3-manor Knight (£30 Estate) starts to accumulate an actual court. The extra £4-6 / year (income £30 - superlative knight £14 - 2x hhk+steward £5-6 = £4-6 excess) tends to go for more entourage members (a lawyer, a scribe, an actual lady-in-waiting...). See BoE for examples (£50 Estate).

And there you have it. Conversion done.

Personally I think that the number of maintenance levels is too little.
The difference between a guy with 3 manors and duke should be huge..
Calling them both Superlative Rich somehow doesnt do them justice.
One superlative rich will have a much large entourage than another superlative rich...

Book of Estate gives examples of all the entourage richer people have. However they are all rich..

brainstorm:
Drop maintenance levels wording. Go for maintenance librum value.
Right now the advantages of higher maintenance are childbirth, horse survival, nmr of squires
If I remember correctly (book not here), than these modifiers can be gained from an entourage-follower.
Each (player) lord is free to choice his own entourage (and horses/wifes/children, which for this sake I consider entourage) up to his maintenance librum value. Seamstress must be hired to make ones clothing at appropriate levels [more seamstress, more status].
For those indifferent players or NPCs example entourages for different maintenance librum values must be given. Suggestion would be to make entourages in steps of 10L (manor) upkeep.

Problem here is that is it easy for an eg 30L manor to drop 3 entourage and gain 3L free spending money. Suggested solution: spending less money than (see book of estate money spend on maintenance) causes honor loss.

So we just need to expand entourage maintenance table..

fg,
Dr. Thijs

Oh, I agree that the scope is too small. Personally, I'd like to see something more like this:

0.5 manor = one household knight
1 manor = one ordinary knight
2 manors = one rich knight
4 manors = one superlative knight
8 manors = one baron-level knight
16 manors = one earl-level knight
32 manors = one duke-level knight
64 manors = one king-level knight

So this would then lead to:
1 manor = 1 normal vassal knight
3 manors = 1 rich vassal knight + 2 household knights
7 manors = 1 superlative (banneret?) knight + 6 household knights
15 manors = 1 baron + 14 household knights
And so forth.

These would include also entourage members, of course. You could piece up the actual upkeep in sections, too, especially to give more granularity in the beginning. Frankly, after the superlative level, I suspect we'd 'average out' most differences and I would not bother fiddling with details anymore.

One thing you can 'ding' easily is the Glory gained from better economic circumstances (but this is not much). Selfish checks as well if you are skimping on the proper ostentation due to your status; this hurts would-be chivalric knights plenty quick. Penalties to social rolls, etc.

Agreed, now most players will be in the 1-5 manors realm, regrettably book of estate jumps a few levels there.
This can be worked out with an extended table of which entourage (on average) you have depending number of manors.
Second thing is that often (household or 1 manor) players have some cash-flow (ransom or loot) and want to spend that on their maintenance. How would that work? Simply hire this entourage for a single year and fire them at the end (or have some more cash flow)..

I 'feel' a table with column of each type of retainer/wife/children etc and their cost, and then in more columns the number you are expected to have as function of number of manors...
Knowing you, Morien, you have that?

fg,
Thijs

I 'feel' a table with column of each type of retainer/wife/children etc and their cost, and then in more columns the number you are expected to have as function of number of manors...
Knowing you, Morien, you have that?


Alas, I don't have that yet as it was a bit outside the scope of what I was trying to do with this, i.e. use the old £6 upkeep system and try to see how it would actually break down into individuals etc. Frankly, this is more squarely in the Estate's purview.

But, at a stab...

£10 Upkeep:
£2 Knight
£1 Squire
£2 Horses
£2 Wifey
£1 Lady-in-Waiting
£1 Children
£1 Chaplain

Then each doubling would increase the number of servants OR increase the other benefits. It depends a bit how much detail you want, since Book of the Estate is already pretty close to this, but clearly a bit different in details.

The only 'base' numbers are 4L for bachelor knight, 6L for married knight with kids..
Basically we must bring book of Estate and book of Entourage in agreement with each other and above statements..
'free' manors dont exist anymore (no more +6L income each year with no obligations).
So now we need as a function of number of manors you control (directly, not eneoffened) your entourage and benefits

fg,
Thijs

There are currently three statements, one of which must be 'untrue':
1) Normal Knight (+ family) upkeep is £6.
2) A Manor provides £10 for the upkeep of a vassal knight & family. (Actually, the example in Estate's is £12 from a titular £10 estate, but ignore that for now...)
3) A Vassal Knight with 1 Manor lives as a Normal Knight.

This can be solved in a variety of ways.
1) + 2) are true, then a Vassal Knight with 1 Manor might live as a Rich Knight. No contradiction.
1) + 3) are true, then a Manor does NOT provide £10, but £6 'after expenses'. Again, problem solved.
2) + 3) are true, then a Normal Knight with Family needs £10 upkeep. Problem solved.

Any preferences?

Greg has indicated that 3 is no longer correct.

fg,
Thijs

*nods* Which is very good news for all vassal knight PKs.

So in this case, I'd use the Simplified System in the beginning of this thread and just say that the Vassal Knights at £10 (x1.5 + Chaplain) are Rich. Alternatively, we could reduce the bonus garnered by Rich and 'stretch the scale' a bit.

For instance (£6 = +0 in all, other tiers at £9/£12/£18/£30/£60?)
Clothing: £1 / £1 / £2 / £4 / £8
Squires & Ladies-in-waiting: 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5
Childbirth: +1 / +2 / +3 / +4 / +5
Child survival: +1 / +1 / +2 / +3 / +4
Horse survival: +0 / +1 / +1 / +2 / +3

So these would correspond, roughly, to 1-manor, 2-manor, 3-manor, banneret & baron wealth.
£10: £9 maintenance + £1 Chaplain
£20: £12 maintenance + £4 household knight + £1 Chaplain + 3 entourage members
£30: £18 maintenance + 2x£4 household knights + £1 Chaplain + 3 entourage members
£40: £18 maintenance + 3x£4 household knights + £1 Chaplain + 9 entourage members (bit odd!)
£50: £30 maintenance + 4x£4 household knights + £1 Chaplain + 3 entourage members
£60: £30 maintenance + 5x£4 household knights + £1 Chaplain + 9 entourage members
£120: £60 maintenance + 11x£4 household knights + £1 Chaplain + 15 entourage members

Granted, some of the entourage members are 'hidden' into the maintenance, such as the wives of some of the household knights (£2 each) acting as higher-class Ladies-in-waiting. And the officers' bonus income would lower the number of 'hangers-on'.

Also, the £40 case shows that we'd need to have a gradual scale (subdivided between different maintenance categories), or we end up in odd situations where the jumps between the classes means that the number of entourage members fluctuates (which feels wrong; a richer vassal should have MORE entourage members, not less!).

Of course, now we are squarely in the Book of the Estate territory, and the old adage you mentioned earlier, Thijs, about reinventing the wheel, starts to feel quite appropriate.

Those jumps should of course not happen...
What I would do is look at book of estate and compare 10L [19 people] and 50L [92 people] estates and interpolate between those two.
In addition I would separate 'running' expenses, and 'extra' (or Rich) expenses, so that you know what money is needed to spend to become 'Rich' or Superlative.

I just found interesting loophole. 10L manor do not need field army (but 50L estates do), so if I marry and get second manor as dowry, I still dont need field army..

fg,
Thijs

Yes, I think Book of the Estate recommends to interpolate when you are dealing with estates between £10 and £50 or £50 and £100 in size, and has even a table for that.

The thing is that I think (especially the bigger estates) are already running at Superlative, not Ordinary. For instance, even the £10 estate is actually spending £12 / year for the household + servants, which is the old Superlative step.

I did notice this 'bug' as well. I think it was brought up either in the book or in one of the threads here in the forum and the answer was basically not to bother with it. I'd be tempted to take £2 out of the Standard of Living entries in £10 estate, and use that money to hire 2 'field army' soldiers and 1 garrison soldier and maybe a 'starting armourer' or something (£0.5 each). Then this 'loop hole' would be closed and there would be more of a difference between the lifestyles of £10 estate and £20 estate...

That bug can be fixed.

I am just looking for the (simple) answer when a player asks me:
1) "I am a 1 manor vassal knight, I found some treasure/ransom and I want to live superlative rich (because of the nice bonusses), how much do I need to spend and how large will my entourage become?"

2) "I am a 1 manor vassal knight, I marry a woman with 1 manor dowry, how will my household/expenses now look like?"

fg,
Thijs

Well, if you are only playing in the 'little leagues', my answer would be:

1) "Pay half again (so £5 / year) and you'll get to live the life of riches. You'll gain an additional squire and your wife gains an addition lady-in-waiting. All the other entourage members you will have to pay separately. Yes, you do gain some, but they are already accounted for in the childbirth & survival modifiers, so if you want explicitly to have a hairdresser or a bard or what not, that costs extra."

2) "You'll gain £10 extra income, and you will have to pay for a household knight (-£4). This leaves you with £6 extra per year. May I suggest an upgrade to Superlative status (-£5, see above) and an additional Entourage Member (-£1)? Actually, you probably wish to hire a Steward as the place is on the other side of the County/Kingdom, so that takes care of that."

Note that this would be in contradiction with Book of the Estate, where the 'household expenses' are £12. But that same household also provides work etc... Which is partially why I find BoE so difficult to scale. Well, if you go through the £10 estate example and the note about unmarried knights... you will come out with the answer that you don't actually save anything from the wife's portion, so you'd only save money in the knight upkeep: instead of £6 libra you'd pay the normal £4 household knight, and then probably a £2 steward, and the answer is that you'd break even normally, and gain a household knight (complete with a squire), a steward and a host of domestic servants and such needed to keep the other manor running.

Which is then in contradiction with the bigger estate examples. AARGH! :P