So as a matter of errata DEX is intended to be used to resist knockdown whether afoot or mounted.

First, I haven't run much Pendragon - I don't have a clear grasp of how the game plays out overall. So I can't speak to the overall consequences of any rules change I might suggest here. But when has ignorance ever stopped anyone from having an opinion?

Also because binary fallacies are the dominant fauna of the internet I want to make it clear... I don't actually have a problem with the rule change, just the apparent reason for it.

As I see it there are two possible core reasons for this change.

1) To make getting knocked off a horse a bit more likely
and/or
2) To make DEX less of a dump stat and SIZ less of an uber stat. (and this seemed to be the primary context in which this rule change was discussed)

Therefore:

1) If it the former... no objections really. You can stop reading now if you wish! 20 horsemanship is clearly more achievable and more common than 20 DEX.

2) In the second case though it doesn't clearly accomplish that goal.

Compare 16 SIZ and 8 DEX vs a knight with 8 SIZ and 16 DEX

big agile balanced (12/12)
1-7 damage 0% 0% 0%
8-11 0% 25% 0%
12-15 0% 25% 40%
16-23 60% 100% 40%
24-31 60% 100% 100%
32+ 100% 100% 100%

A balanced knight actually holds up fairly well against a knight that abandons DEX entirely (at least for 'mid-range' damage values), but high SIZ clearly beats high DEX for resisting knockdown.

If someone really wants to I guess they could compute the 3 dimensional probability projection of SIZ/DEX/expected damage, more power to them, but this as mathy as I intend to go.

If the goal is to make DEX more relevant - might I suggest changing the damage formula instead?

So I'm going to mention "realism" but I want to make it clear that I'm not appealing to "realism" in the way that is so frequently invoked. Reality (like history) is just one source for Pendragon to call upon - it doesn't trump Malory. Pendragon's system of testing skill vs skill (with the edge obviously going to the more skilled) is more realistic (no quote marks!) than any more detailed combat resolution you could devise. Abstraction covers many sins and a dash of "realism" can have horribly unrealistic results.

The current formula (SIZ+STR)/6 doubles up on strength and mass as a critical element of how effectively you can harm an opponent in combat. In fact the ideal swordsman is not a burly mountain of meat. You could really go down a rabbit hole with the oddness of RPGs and the tendency to apply numerical 'ratings' for strength, dexterity, etc. Compare any 2 sports and you will quickly see that each has it's own physical ideal, but suffice to say that agility is far more important than strength or size when it comes to killing someone with a sword.

(STR+DEX)/6 might move DEX into a more proper place against the other stats. I am far from a system expert so maybe this actually shifts the balance too much and makes SIZ a potential dump stat, but it is a rules option and is at least plausibly more "realistic".

*Fiddly side note: The damage formula could also vary by weapon - swords, spears, and daggers using STR+DEX while maces, hammers, axes, and brawling use the original SIZ+STR formula.

While I do agree that DEX is getting the short end of the stick when it comes to the usefulness of stats (with SIZ being the most important and APP tending to be absolute rubbish when going 'by-the-book' where it has no mechanical effect at all), physics tells us that that the damage you do with a weapon boils down to four user-dependent things:
Length of the lever = SIZ, a big guy has longer arms
Mass of the lever = SIZ, i.e. the mass of the user's arm
Speed of the weapon = STR, since you need force to accelerate the mass
Edge alignment & hit placement = Weapon skill, whether you deliver an effective blow or not

Now you could very well argue that DEX is the coordination and hence should deliver more accurate blows, but alas, that is not the case in Pendragon, where DEX and weapon skills are decoupled. Hence DEX plays no part in the skill, which is the only part where I could see it making a contribution.

Instead, I would seek to make DEX more useful in other ways. There is a whole thread devoted to this, but just some highlights:

1) Default Swimming from DEX: this allows you to challenge the PKs with water-related problems, and I have YET to see a knight spend points to Swimming skill. And sure, why not Dancing as well.

2) Default Weapon skills from DEX or at least DEX/2. The former is a big benefit, while the latter is less so, but may be still something when learning new weapons. DEX-5 might be good, as it keeps each DEX point valuable, but leaves most defaults at 5-10 range. Still, this would not be too unbalancing.

3) Have more DEX-related challenges & benefits.

4) And here is one more from the left-field. Decouple SIZ and Knockdown. Make it purely about DEX. What is currently making SIZ such an uberstat is that it keeps you on your feet and on the saddle, AND allows you to knock people off theirs AND gives you more hit points. Take away the first part, make DEX your Knockdown stat. And hey presto, you suddenly want to have a reasonable DEX to keep to your feet.

While I do agree that DEX is getting the short end of the stick when it comes to the usefulness of stats (with SIZ being the most important and APP tending to be absolute rubbish when going 'by-the-book' where it has no mechanical effect at all), physics tells us that that the damage you do with a weapon boils down to four user-dependent things:
Length of the lever = SIZ, a big guy has longer arms
Mass of the lever = SIZ, i.e. the mass of the user's arm
Speed of the weapon = STR, since you need force to accelerate the mass
Edge alignment & hit placement = Weapon skill, whether you deliver an effective blow or not

I'm not sure how much I really want to get into debating this topic. I'm not an expert or even an amateur, I just watch HEMA videos on the internet.

You don't kill an enemy in heavy armor with a sword by cutting through his armor (which is all but physically impossible with mail, much less plate), you do it by finding the gaps. There is also a practical limit to how much force you can put into a blow without overexposing yourself. Honestly I could just link youtube videos - not because I think they are infallible sources that will defeat any counter argument, but because I don't really have personal knowledge to add on the subject of historical swordsmanship that isn't covered within them.

I don't think DEX+STR is per se "realistic". It's just at least as or more plausible as SIZ+STR. And potentially resolves a perceived balance issue. (but not definitely, and may introduce others)

I realize it's entirely possible, even probable, that in Arthurian literature knights are frequently described cleaving through armor. And I readily acknowledge that's a strong argument in favor having damage be based purely on a character's physical mass. (Malory trumps reality)

The idea of using DEX to determine base skills and the like is interesting, but it's something the system doesn't really enter into at all at this point. By the same token APP could be to determine base values for various courtly skills. But all of this would slow down character creation (which is mercifully fast currently - one of my favorite things about the system) Also if base skill determination was to be major balance factor in the stats, how would you handle stat changes from training, glory, and aging?


4) And here is one more from the left-field. Decouple SIZ and Knockdown. Make it purely about DEX. What is currently making SIZ such an uberstat is that it keeps you on your feet and on the saddle, AND allows you to knock people off theirs AND gives you more hit points. Take away the first part, make DEX your Knockdown stat. And hey presto, you suddenly want to have a reasonable DEX to keep to your feet.

My left field thinking was sort of the opposite. Decouple knockdown from DEX and make that SIZ's "thing".

Changing the auto-knockdown cut-off from 2*SIZ to SIZ+DEX is also a possibility to balance the stats.

And/or making the roll against knockdown an opposed roll instead of a unopposed roll. (I'm not sure I would want the additional complexity at the table though)

I mean, I thought of like 6 other possible house rules on this subject, but I don't have the system familiarity to really evaluate them.

My primary point was that I don't think using DEX to resist knockdown on horseback really changes anything as far how players are incentivized to spend their stat points. Which is why I put this in the rule questions forum instead of house rules. Well either I put this in house rules afterall or it got moved.

You don't kill an enemy in heavy armor with a sword by cutting through his armor (which is all but physically impossible with mail, much less plate), you do it by finding the gaps.

While not arguing about cutting metal, the force of the blow is definitely something that influences whether or not the sword does damage on a hit against a chain mail. Also, finding the gaps is exactly the function of your Weapon SKILL, which has been explicitly decoupled from DEX. DEX, as written, has exactly zero impact on how well the knight handles his weapons. Now, we can 'debate' about how to 'fix' that with houserules, in which case I'd rather have it as a bonus for weapon skills, rather than mess with the damage formula.



The idea of using DEX to determine base skills and the like is interesting, but it's something the system doesn't really enter into at all at this point. By the same token APP could be to determine base values for various courtly skills. But all of this would slow down character creation (which is mercifully fast currently - one of my favorite things about the system) Also if base skill determination was to be major balance factor in the stats, how would you handle stat changes from training, glory, and aging?


The APP default has been brought up before, yes. And I wouldn't mind that. It is just one number and it would take what, a minute or two to say: "Alright lads and lasses, take APP divided by two and put that number for your Compose, Courtesy, Flirting, Intrigue, Orate, Play and Sing." and for them to do it. I am seriously tempted to adopt that as a house rule in our campaign, but that is a bit beside the point of this discussion, which is about DEX. :)



My left field thinking was sort of the opposite. Decouple knockdown from DEX and make that SIZ's "thing".


Wouldn't that make SIZ even more of an uber-stat and DEX even more useless, though?

Another thing that comes to mind, which wouldn't change SIZ desirablity, but would make high-DEX a bit more useful build: Take knockdown from the higher of SIZ or DEX. Thus, a high-DEX character is just as good (and actually even betterm, due to the DEX roll) at avoiding knockdown than high-SIZ character, but would still give SIZ plenty of bang for the buck.



Changing the auto-knockdown cut-off from 2*SIZ to SIZ+DEX is also a possibility to balance the stats.


Hmm. That is an interesting idea that I could see working nicely. Granted, the auto-knockdown is a rare problem and usually the PK has other concerns by that time (i.e. major wound from all the damage).



And/or making the roll against knockdown an opposed roll instead of a unopposed roll. (I'm not sure I would want the additional complexity at the table though)

I mean, I thought of like 6 other possible house rules on this subject, but I don't have the system familiarity to really evaluate them.


I am not sure how you'd do the opposed roll? You mean DEX vs. Damage?

As for the second thing, post away! New ideas or even rehashing old ones with new minds is always fun! :)



My primary point was that I don't think using DEX to resist knockdown on horseback really changes anything as far how players are incentivized to spend their stat points.


I agree with you there. But I have pretty much resigned that as long as the players get to choose their own stats, they will go for big SIZ & STR to get 6d6 in damage, which is a SIGNIFICANT advantage over 5d6, especially once people start getting better armor. 4d6 is just not cutting it, in my experience. We had a PK with 4d6 in the party, and he was next to ineffectual, as his blows rarely even triggered knockdown rolls, let alone penetrate the shield & armor combo.

One fix that I could see... Change the pricing.
1) Start all stats at 12.
2) Each point of SIZ is 2 points (+ or -).
3) Each point of DEX & APP is 0.5 points (+ or -).
4) Each point of STR and CON is 1 point.
5) You have 10 points to spend. No cultural modifiers are used.

Examples:
A) SIZ 17 (10 pts), DEX 8 (-2 pt), STR 16 (4 pts), CON 12 (0 pts), APP 8 (-2 pts)
B) SIZ 15 (6 pts), DEX 8 (-2 pts), STR 18 (6 pts), CON 14 (2 pts), APP 8 (-2 pts)
C) SIZ 14 (4 pts), DEX 12 (0 pts), STR 14 (2 pts), CON 16 (4 pts), APP 12 (0 pts)
D) SIZ 12 (0 pts), DEX 16 (2 pts), STR 15 (3 pts), CON 15 (3 pts), APP 16 (2 pts)

You know, all of those statbars look like they might work. Granted, I'd expect most of my players to still go for the big bruiser model of A or B, but C and D are definitely more attractive now than they'd be otherwise.

Wouldn't that make SIZ even more of an uber-stat and DEX even more useless, though?

This was definitely in the context of removing SIZ from the damage formula.


The APP default has been brought up before, yes. And I wouldn't mind that. It is just one number and it would take what, a minute or two to say: "Alright lads and lasses, take APP divided by two and put that number for your Compose, Courtesy, Flirting, Intrigue, Orate, Play and Sing." and for them to do it. I am seriously tempted to adopt that as a house rule in our campaign, but that is a bit beside the point of this discussion, which is about DEX.

My problem with his concept is that only applies during character generation. If DEX determined starting weapon skill - and assuming the players actually considered that important enough to raise DEX for - you would see them putting lots of points into at character gen, but never after.

If you did allow DEX increases later to increase weapon skill - then you could easily have the opposite effect, where players at 20+ weapon skill put all their stat increases into DEX to spike their skill even higher.


I am not sure how you'd do the opposed roll? You mean DEX vs. Damage?

I was deliberately vague, because I don't have a specific suggestion. But DEX vs damage is a possibility, or it could be DEX vs the attackers SIZ, or DEX vs the a new derived value of some sort.

It was not so much a specific suggestion as a category of suggestion, as I suspected part of the objection to using horsemanship to resist knockdown might be that 20 skill (and therefore guaranteed success on any unopposed roll) is too easily achieved.


As for the second thing, post away! New ideas or even rehashing old ones with new minds is always fun!

I've pretty much forgotten most of the ideas that came to mind. They've been pushed out of mind for the moment while I try to get a grasp on how to prepare for and run the game from session to session.

What I do recall...
The possibility of removing stats as a factor in damage altogether. (making it purely a matter of weapon skill or roll result) Or at least decreasing the effect.

[3+(str+dex)/12]d6
[3+(str+dex+siz)/18]d6
[2+(app+dex/siz)/sin(.4π)]d11
or whatever.

Just now I just thought of max sword skill = 2*DEX or DEX+STR. Or having DEX or STR below 10 applies a -5 modifier.

These ideas are all at a brainstorming level of evaluation. That is I present them with no internal criticism. (that is not to say you may not evaluate them, I just mean I haven't)


I agree with you there. But I have pretty much resigned that as long as the players get to choose their own stats, they will go for big SIZ & STR to get 6d6 in damage, which is a SIGNIFICANT advantage over 5d6, especially once people start getting better armor. 4d6 is just not cutting it, in my experience. We had a PK with 4d6 in the party, and he was next to ineffectual, as his blows rarely even triggered knockdown rolls, let alone penetrate the shield & armor combo.

Even with only 3 sessions under my belt my players have already started to notice that 4d6 damage is not really sufficient. It's a good thing the rules require a newb character to have SIZ+STR of at least 21. (I still had to thwack one of them repeatedly on the head until they adjusted their stats appropriately though)