Warning, wall of rambling incoming.

TL;DR
I'd like to see a more active system for courtly skills, help me brain-storm?


I am also toying with the idea of having a number of courtly skill give annual Glory, up to a max of 100 per year. The reason for this is that I want to get away from what we can call the "Chess-Glory-syndrome" which tends to haunt my games. This is basically this. GM thinks, preparing a session: "Poor Stefan has wasted a lof of points on Gaming/Dancing/some other less useful skill. I should give him a opportunity to get some Glory for it". This leads to a kind of filler scenes, in which nothing dramatically interesting are happening just to allow the exercis of the less good skills. I want to get away from that, and this might do the trick. On the other hand, Glory inflation rears its ugly head, and I hate Glory inflation. It unbalances the whole game.

I've been thinking a lot about this too, in a sense.

I started using feast-cards in my campaign, and this was very well received. What it did, was create a sort of "combat-system" for feasts and courtly life. I've been thinking about expanding on this idea, but still making it simpler and faster. Like you, I'm worried about glory-inflation, but still like to reward players that puts effort into interesting skills.

Then why not reward with something useful, OTHER than glory? There is one part of Pendragon that I consider a main part of the game that still has no useful system. Status and influence. There is a difference here from Glory. While Glory gives you recognition and fame, it does not necessarily give you STATUS. Status is what gives you titles, lands and power. Glory is what gives you recognition and respect. There are knights that has a lot of status, but not as much glory, even if they affect each other. Titles, status and land is after all not just given to those with a lot of glory. It's given to those that has the titles, lands, family or influence to back up their claims. If you are constantly out adventuring and questing, you will get a lot of glory and become idolized. But your home court might give their titles and offices to knights that choose to stay home and work the court. However, having huge amounts of glory, probably gives you a base-line of status in most courts. (as an example, being a member of the Round Table, probably gives you +status in most courts that respect Arthur). I think one thing that is explicitly noteworthy about Arthur's reign, compared to other kings, is that he gives a lot of status to those with a lot of glory. This is why many old knights with a lot of status become disgruntled when Arthur gives status to all the "cool" knights rather than the old ones that worked a lot for their status.

What if you have a value in Status(Salisbury court) or Status(Logres court) or something similar, perhaps Influence(Salisbury court)? And what if the courtly skills are used to "combat" the court? What if we could have duels of dance, intrigue and flirting? Things like clothes, jewels and rumors can work to temporarily boost you influence. Want your family to take a hold of that old family manor, but your claim is rather weak? Work the court for a few years, get to know the players, increase your status. THEN petition the Lord.

There are several interesting options:

* Treat status similarly to Glory, i.e. a pool of points that has no upper limit. You can reward a player with "Your song impresses the court, you get 10 Glory and 10 Status for this court". Having a high value would give you bonus on skill-checks in that court. As your status increases, you get more bonus. Unknown -> Up-and-coming -> Influential -> Major Player -> Dominant. Your status is separate for each court.

* Treat it similarly to a skill or trait. It goes from 1-20+, and you can get checks in it. This would make it work, sort of like a skill. (You can roll it to see if you get useful information from the court, or if you voice is heard). It should not however, work as a passion directly. You cannot fight better because you have status.

* Make it into a simplified combat system. Give each player social "hit-points". And use courtly skills like combat-skills. Try to make it simple, but as similar as possible to the existing combat-system.

What do you say? Am I overthinking something that works as it is?

My long-term plan is to have Status or Influence or some such term based not on the individual, but on his family.
individuals are far less important than the group
A person who is the nephew of a powerful Count has more influence than the head of a tiny family.
It would be a sum of all of his family's status ratings.
Obviously, I have not had time to complete such a system.
Yet.

My long-term plan is to have Status or Influence or some such term based not on the individual, but on his family.
individuals are far less important than the group
A person who is the nephew of a powerful Count has more influence than the head of a tiny family.
It would be a sum of all of his family's status ratings.
Obviously, I have not had time to complete such a system.
Yet.


This would work very well with the next campaign I'm setting up, so I'll roll with it. :) I have other thoughts about families and what it means beeing a part of one, but that is for another thread. My new campaign will center around for different families, and how they tie together. Actually, that is the ulterior motive for this thread.

Can I ask you, how have your thoughts about this "status-system" been so far? How would you prefer implementing a status-system for a family? Would you make it one large status for all members? Is it individual per court or region?

Sounds interesting. Just some thoughts that pop in my head.

Elements that determine status:
- Number of knights in the family.
- Titles within family. This ranges from Emperor- King - Duke - Earl - Baron. Officers of these lords count as one lower. so a an officer of a king is equal to a duke, etc.
- Number of holdings.
- Glory levels of the family knights. Average - Notable - Famous - Extraordinairy. Or you could probably use the 1000 points.

Questions would be:
- What does still count as family? How many steps removed from you is still family?
- Also how many generations do still count towards status. the fact that my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a king should hold some sway.
- What about the family of wifes? Being married to the niece of a king should give some status.

- What does still count as family? How many steps removed from you is still family?
- Also how many generations do still count towards status. the fact that my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a king should hold some sway.
- What about the family of wifes? Being married to the niece of a king should give some status.


I love this, but it runs the risk of getting very complicated to keep track of.
My first thought was to simple count the number of "steps" away from being first born. And that as some sort of multiplier and see how much status you add to the family. But this will quickly become much more tedious than it adds to the game.

Pendragon is usually centred around the player, and what they add to things (as obvious in the battle system, where the actions of a few simple knights can turn the tide of a major battle). I'd personally prefer a system that adds status to the game and that let's the players actions and decisions contribute to the larger family's status and influence. They should't perhaps DOMINATE it, unless they are the main character in the family, but the players actions should contribute, for good or bad. I'd prefer to keep the rest of the families contributions to story-teller events, adventures or random events. Keeping track of every family members contribution would become VERY difficult very quickly.

Perhaps the actions of the player during a session or similar can add or detract from the families status, and then some sort of random events occur during the Winter Phase that take into account the rest of the families contributions? Perhaps each player (or multiple players if they belong to the same family) uses a separate "family-sheet". The family is counted as a simple "npc" with it's own pros and cons. Some things like army from the current sheet, could be moved to this sheet as well. How much of the main family army you can call up for aid, is instead calculated from how much influence you have in your own family. This sort of sheet would also be add a concurrent "character" that follow the campaign, even if your current character dies. Some of your efforts will stay with the family for generations.

This would also mean that each player has a family with it's own status. And then a separate "influence" within their own family.

I love this, but it runs the risk of getting very complicated to keep track of.
My first thought was to simple count the number of "steps" away from being first born. And that as some sort of multiplier and see how much status you add to the family. But this will quickly become much more tedious than it adds to the game.

Exactly why I laid it aside to do more important stuff

I love this, but it runs the risk of getting very complicated to keep track of.
My first thought was to simple count the number of "steps" away from being first born. And that as some sort of multiplier and see how much status you add to the family. But this will quickly become much more tedious than it adds to the game.

Exactly why I laid it aside to do more important stuff


I'm with you on this. Still! You managed to create an excellent system for Glory, I do think it's quite possible to do it with status as well. I'm looking forward to the day when you make a more official status-system. But until then... house-rules!

So, to summarize my thoughts:
* It needs to be easy to manage, some bookkeeping is ok. But it needs to be manageable.
* It needs to be fast.
* It needs to be useful.
* It could to be adding something useful to more skills.
* It could add more interesting family-play.
* It could add status, influence and politics. Without it being blown up into a full-blown GoT.

Thoughs?

I'm with you on this. Still! You managed to create an excellent system for Glory, I do think it's quite possible to do it with status as well. I'm looking forward to the day when you make a more official status-system. But until then... house-rules!

Thank you
It took a couple of years of work to get that together properly, though
so I am not panicked about this


So, to summarize my thoughts:
* It needs to be easy to manage, some bookkeeping is ok. But it needs to be manageable.
* It needs to be fast.
* It needs to be useful.
* It could to be adding something useful to more skills.
* It could add more interesting family-play.
* It could add status, influence and politics. Without it being blown up into a full-blown GoT.
Thoughts?

Yep, those are what I am shooting for.
Adding a new component, the Family, inevitably complicates play.
Manageable is a subjective measure.
Fast is best, and has been a big hangup.
Usefulness for it would be entirely in an extended courtly situation. It is not needed for any adventuring, except maybe to raise ransom.
It skill addition would not be to the player knight's skill. It would provide a pool of skills that might be accessible to a character, although not quickly. For instance, a second cousin knows everything there is to know about Fae. However, he lives on the other side of the island, and he thinks you particular lineage is a disgrace...
It would be an addendum to the family play, yes. No reason to have a Family Game without Status helping in the game.
Status, influence, and politics are precisely where it would be.

Now, I am tired of doing background material for KAP. This would count as background. I am much more interested these days into getting back to the real meat of the game: adventures.
So don't hold your breath!