I have been somewhat unimpressed by the efficacy of the Great Spear armed foot soldiers in our campaigns, especially towards the later periods. It should be the ultimate anti-cavalry weapon, but at the moment, it is not. You get much more oomph out of the Halberd, for example, which also negates the penalty of fighting against a mounted opponent. While the Great Spear is good at anti-lance work already, there is one unfortunate outcome from it: my players are tempted to have their PKs switch to swords and such rather than use their lances vs. great spears, since the lance bonus goes away and they generally have a better skill with their melee weapons.

So, some of the things I have been considering:

1) Allow it to negate the mounted BONUS, too.
So, rather than simply making the +5/-5 into +5/0, it makes the modifier vanish from the mounted attacker, too, into 0/0. This would help the foot soldiers a lot. I am not sure this is needed, however, with the ideas below. In fact, I probably wouldn't add this, too. Just mentioning it here as one of the potential ideas.

2) Give it Lance-like capabilities vs. other weapons.
If it is capable of negating a lance, it is as long as a lance, right? In short, unless you are using a lance or a great spear, your great spear wielding opponent gets +5 to skill. This would be, in effect, enough to make the modifiers vanish as above (although the high skill knights would still benefit from more criticals and getting their shield, too).
However, in duels / small scale skirmishes, I'd limit this to apply only as long as he can keep you at bay, i.e. as long as he keeps winning those opposed rolls. I would also give the great spears -5 vs. an opponent on foot (once they have closed in), as they can't shorten the spear enough to make it nimble enough against a guy who can really crowd them. (Similarly as if you manage to close with your lance-wielding opponent, the lance becomes quite cumbersome. In our game, NPKs & PKs usually drop the lance and go to their melee weapon when it is obvious that they can't continue lance charging, although this might be more of a reflection of their poor Spear skills, as we haven't been using Spear Expertise.)

3) Hedgehog Formation!
Assuming a (trained) formation of great spear wielders, I would definitely allow at least two spear points to attack any one attacker with a sword, on horseback or on foot. Also, the additional mass of men and spear points means that trying to hack your way in with a sword is a mite difficult, i.e. you won't be able to negate the Great Spear bonus from 2) when they are in formation, even if you win the opposed contest (not that it matters, unless it is an extended melee on the battlefield, or a very large skirmish).

4) Set against a charge!
Perhaps the most efficient boost, this means that if you are lance-charging a great spear, if he hits you, he will deliver your lance-charge damage to you! It is simple physics, the force of the collision of your horse into his spearpoint is the same as your lance entering him, and with the butt of the spear placed against the ground, the difference in mass doesn't matter (i.e. you are not knocking him out of the way). I'd probably utilize the lance-breaking rules for these big collisions, too.

I haven't tried these yet, but I think 2) - 4) are quite reasonable and would make schiltrons come more to their own, changing the PKs' response from "haa, more bloody peasants" to "sod this, where are our archers?" when they meat Great Spear armed foot soldiers on the field. :) (Unless they manage to catch the spearmen in the flank/out of formation, which is when gleeful slaughter ensues. Yes, I know schiltron doesn't really have a flank.)

Any comments, suggestions?

1) It is an easy solution. I would not use it in with the other ideas, but it could stand on itself. It will prevent too many critical hits. Although I have noticed that the PKs need the +5 bonus to prevent the footsoldiers to make too much of s slaughter.
2) Seems reasonable. Although I am not fond of the add on (must keep winning to keep opponent at bay). It will require more notetaking as you must keep track if they won or not. Also what happens if the PK fights two opponents and one wins and the other loses? Did you get inside one and not the other? You could also reason that the bonus only works in the first round of combat.
3) This is an add on to 2. Does this also work against lance wielding PKs?
4) I like this the most. The idea about the horse dameg use with a lance charge is that you use the speed and strength of the horse instead of your own. In essence the great spear wielder does the same, except it is using the speed and strength of the horse of his enemy.

Thanks or the comments!



2) Seems reasonable. Although I am not fond of the add on (must keep winning to keep opponent at bay). It will require more notetaking as you must keep track if they won or not. Also what happens if the PK fights two opponents and one wins and the other loses? Did you get inside one and not the other? You could also reason that the bonus only works in the first round of combat.


That might be a good 'simplification' to make. If you survive the first round, you are able to get inside the reach, and the great spear wielder doesn't get any more boni. Also, it keeps the spear from being too good, while still retaining its potency in formation fighting (i.e. as long as the formation is unbroken, they get that +5 since the opponent cannot push in though that thicket of spear-points).



3) This is an add on to 2. Does this also work against lance wielding PKs?


I'd be tempted to say yes: you can many more spearmen per frontage than you can have horsemen with lances. Even if they charging stirrup to stirrup, you can have a second rank of spearmen. Note that this assumes that they have trained fighting in formation. If you have a bunch of peasants who have been given great spears yesterday, they will do much worse.

Also, if you allow only one spearman vs. a lance-charging knight, the problem becomes that you have a Lance 15 knight getting +5 from being mounted vs. this poor spearman of skill 12 and nothing else. It means that the knights can more often than not crack great spear blocks by frontal charges, which I find quite displeasing from realism perspective. Having two spearmen with 12, vs. Lance 15 -> 8+5/7+5 = 13/12. Much more even fight, with an even chance that one spearman goes down, but the knight's horse is likely to impale itself on such a reckless change, too. (Yes, I know you technically can't divide Lance skill like that between two opponents side by side, but we could easily claim that it represents shieldwork and if you hit both, it is the horse crashing against the other one and trampling him underhoof...)



4) I like this the most. The idea about the horse dameg use with a lance charge is that you use the speed and strength of the horse instead of your own. In essence the great spear wielder does the same, except it is using the speed and strength of the horse of his enemy.

Exactly so.

I have been toying with the idea of adjusting the lance damage based on the circumstances, too:
Enemy charging you, too: +Xd6
Enemy standing still: normal
Enemy riding away: use your own normal damage and Spear skill.

We actually use that latter one already, but not the first one. Something like +1d6 might be enough to make it a bit more significant, although I might go as high as +2d6. I would definitely not double the damage, since that would be way too deadly. +2d6 would make two charger knights do 8d6 each, which is averaging 28 points, enough to autoknock a generic NPK out of the saddle, which might be a bit too much, not to mention cause a borderline Major Wound, and that is assuming a shield, too. +1d6 would probably be enough.

Yes, this is fiddling. I like fiddling! :P

Great insights Morien


2) Give it Lance-like capabilities vs. other weapons.
If it is capable of negating a lance, it is as long as a lance, right? In short, unless you are using a lance or a great spear, your great spear wielding opponent gets +5 to skill. This would be, in effect, enough to make the modifiers vanish as above (although the high skill knights would still benefit from more criticals and getting their shield, too).
However, in duels / small scale skirmishes, I'd limit this to apply only as long as he can keep you at bay, i.e. as long as he keeps winning those opposed rolls. I would also give the great spears -5 vs. an opponent on foot (once they have closed in), as they can't shorten the spear enough to make it nimble enough against a guy who can really crowd them. (Similarly as if you manage to close with your lance-wielding opponent, the lance becomes quite cumbersome. In our game, NPKs & PKs usually drop the lance and go to their melee weapon when it is obvious that they can't continue lance charging, although this might be more of a reflection of their poor Spear skills, as we haven't been using Spear Expertise.)

I like this, but inside reach adds another factor to combat. Perhaps not a difficult or important one, and one that goes away when melee weapons are switched to


3) Hedgehog Formation!
Assuming a (trained) formation of great spear wielders, I would definitely allow at least two spear points to attack any one attacker with a sword, on horseback or on foot. Also, the additional mass of men and spear points means that trying to hack your way in with a sword is a mite difficult, i.e. you won't be able to negate the Great Spear bonus from 2) when they are in formation, even if you win the opposed contest (not that it matters, unless it is an extended melee on the battlefield, or a very large skirmish).


another good idea, although useful only in massed combat I think. This might make another option to battle, but eprhaps not unreasonable either


4) Set against a charge!
Perhaps the most efficient boost, this means that if you are lance-charging a great spear, if he hits you, he will deliver your lance-charge damage to you! It is simple physics, the force of the collision of your horse into his spearpoint is the same as your lance entering him, and with the butt of the spear placed against the ground, the difference in mass doesn't matter (i.e. you are not knocking him out of the way). I'd probably utilize the lance-breaking rules for these big collisions, too.

I haven't tried these yet, but I think 2) - 4) are quite reasonable and would make schiltrons come more to their own, changing the PKs' response from "haa, more bloody peasants" to "sod this, where are our archers?" when they meat Great Spear armed foot soldiers on the field. :) (Unless they manage to catch the spearmen in the flank/out of formation, which is when gleeful slaughter ensues. Yes, I know schiltron doesn't really have a flank.)
Nor does schiltron have a widespread use
But the set speak = horse damage is pretty awesome.
Trained or untrained foot is another additional factor to consider.
Now to consider whether these add too much and take away the knight's best weapon
of course, if the Saxons are not generally trained it makes some things simpler. And I would not consider most of them to be trained. Maybe Shield Wall as a defensive option would let them be trained for spear use...

A steady Great Spear armed formation of foot soldiers should be Bad News for the knights. The English knights couldn't touch the Scottish schiltrons at the Battle of Falkirk, which is why Edward I, The Hammer of the Scots, sent forth his longbowmen who decimated the Scots, and the routing foot soldiers were then ridden down by the knights.

I don't think the Great Spear should be the common Saxon weapon. Shields and spears or axes, or great axes, sure. But Great Spear would be rarer amongst them. Of course, that is just my 'feel' about it.

One complication of the schiltron is that it is not a very mobile formation when actively trying to defend. So that would be a complication possibly requiring special rules in the Book of Battle. Possibly about where and when during a battle in which it might be encountered; e.g. unlikely to be on "your" side of the battlefield.

It is not a fast formation, sure, but it is not nailed to the ground either. Also, it could be a Critical / Fumbled battle event: On a Critical, catch the unit moving/disorganized, while they are not bristling with spears, on a fumble, order a charge too late and you are riding into a hedgehog.

I do not want to be a damper but
Several things
1. Schiltron is a mighty rare formation. I cannot think of it being used outside these Scots battles against the English. And only in a pretty narrow time span.
2. I think this whole discussion is actually about pikes, not a 2H spear
3. It would have very limited affect in a normal game, useful in Battles only
4. In a BoB battle the player knights perspective knocks a lot of these options out of possibility; also the knights will have committed to charge before they know who their opponent is
5. Too much good (historical) stuff and it will wipe out the primary purpose of the game: knights on horses. It's not the first time that strict historical veracity is sacrificed for the good of the game.

Despite all that, I am writing parts of this down for later use.

Circular schiltrons were pretty rare, but the Scottish continued using pike blocks throughout the 14th century.

Continent has its pikeblocks from the Flemish in Courtrai 1302 to the even more famous Swiss pikemen from early 14th century all the way to early Modern period.

Yes, it would be more appropriate for a pike, but KAP 5.1 doesn't have a pike and has the Great Spear as the 'footman's lance' type of weapon, so that is why I have been using it as the pike stand-in.