Since Appearance is largely pointless RAW, to keep it from being a complete dump stat I've given it a function. Our group uses it as a modifier for courtly skills:
7 or less: -3
8: -2
9: -3
10-11: +-0
12: +1
13: +2
14+:+3

Some people are just so damn pretty they get everything handed to them :p

Thoughts?

I use APP for the Feast Events house rule that's pretty commonly used, you might want to look into that. I would advise that maybe those bonuses/penalties scale up a little quickly. Especially since, if I remember correctly, APP is calculated by rolling 3d6+1 (Maybe?), which would make 11-12 the median range, and -1 just for having slightly below average looks seems a bit harsh, and likewise, 14 doesn't really seem all that high to be getting bonuses out of it. How I do the modifiers, for the purpose of things like Flirting, which already uses the APP of target, is something like+1 for 16-18, +2 for 19-20, +3 21, +4 22, etc. Or something along those lines. Basically, since the system generally uses the value of 16 as notable, then I see no reason to start giving bonuses until that point. Same with penalties, although I'm not sure when they would start taking effect (I feel like I started handing them out around 8).

Oh, those Feast Events are neat! Thanks for bringing them to my attention, I had no idea. Will definitely implement :)

What I do is have players roll appearance before flirting, romance, courtesy, play instruemnt, sing, or orate directed at the opposite sex (or discreetly roll it myself for members of the same sex). I make sure to make a note of the result for later reference with that NPC, as it will also influence their traits and passions in regards to the player. For example, if they are attempting a seduction, and they have a +3 bonus, that counts both towards the player's flirting roll, but also towards the target's lustful trait.

Fumble: 1d6+1 malus to further interactions. They actively dislike the sight of you. This might be a prejudice based on a 'type' you appear to be, or perhaps something similar to what's called a "punchable face".
Failure: They find you plain at best, unattractive at worst. 1d2-1 malus
Success: 1d6 bonus to further interaction. There is a definite physical attraction, of the temperate sort.
Critical: Lust at first sight, they can't take their eyes off you. 1d6+6 bonus to further interaction.

I then sometimes take these scores and work them into a kind of ranking system when there is competition for a lady's affections.

Attraction + [Glory / 1000] + # of 10L manors held (or by the 50L chunk, if a baron's daughter) + # successful courtly skill checks (only one of each can be attempted, failure subtracts from the score, crits and fumbles count double) + # of gifts equal to 1/5 her father's income + # of deeds done at her asking = Courtship Score

Interesting idea. One comment:



Failure: They find you plain at best, unattractive at worst. 1d2-1 malus

I'd drop this. At worst, this is -1, not worth my time as a GM to keep track of over potentially x times PK number, where x is all the ladies each PK tries flirting with.

Besides, I am quite firmly in the camp that Failure = neutral. In other words, if you roll Courtesy and Fail, it is as if you had not rolled Courtesy at all (or to use a combat example, your Failed combat roll means that you miss and don't get your shield, which is functionally equivalent to you having ignored the opponent in the first place, you are not going to stumble and fall, that is for Fumbles). It doesn't make your life any worse for trying, you are not acting like a bore and insulting the lord, but on the other hand, you are not making a favorable impression, either.

Extenuating circumstances apply, of course. Like trying calm Uther in a rage against Gorlois, it might be better to fade into the woodwork than risk rolling and getting Uther's attention, if your Courtesy sucks (or even if it doesn't; sometimes discretion is better part of valor!). :P Or trying to leap a wide chasm while wearing heavy armor and carrying a wounded friend over your shoulders might be a poorer option than stopping at the edge. Of course, if your other choice is to be ripped to shreds by a gibbering horde of shambling morlocks, you might just as well try...

The reasoning around Failure = neutral is two-fold. First, I want to encourage the players to use their character's skills, not discourage them. Skill rolls and experience checks are fun all around. Secondly, it means that I don't have to escalate every failed roll into something bad, but I can just ignore it, save time and focus on successes. Smoother game and less sullen players all around, IMHO. :) Now I might add that sometimes, the Failure outcome is 'bad' like a group of Saxon raiders deciding to attack you, but you would have had that as the default outcome if you had decided not to try and talk to them anyway. Whereas if you succeed in your Orate (or something), they might at least listen to your proposal.

I normally completely agree with the fail = nothing approach to player action, in fact that's how i treat passions as well. However the APP roll is not at action taken by the player knight, it is a reflection of how the player knight is perceived by a specific npc. I think of it like how one rolls against a player's own size when they are mired in mud.

https://i.imgflip.com/1m3tmj.jpg

As for record keeping, I don't make a note of it for a player making the move on a tavern wench or a farmer's son/daughter, I simply have them roll APP and flirting in succession, and then forget about it. Only a critical of either roll will get the npc so much as a scribble in my notes. The nameless npc will be enamored with the player and probably beg to be whisked away (thinking to have found their knight in shining armor), in which case only if the player decides to keep them as a mistress will I bother to give them a name. On a fumble of either roll, the player is comically rejected: Doused with their own Ale, slapped in the face, stomped on their toes, clobbered with a ladle, spit on, depends on my mood.

The permanent attraction scores are only for specific npc's that the players make an actual effort of courting (such as any of the heiresses or one I make up) or any story npc they make a point of interacting with in general (lady ellen, the lady of oxenford, etc).

I think I've said this before on this forum but my method is to redefine 'ordinary glory' from 10 glory to be 'glory =APP'. This does not affect annual glory nor combat glory in any way but to gaining glory from skill use.

I think I've said this before on this forum but my method is to redefine 'ordinary glory' from 10 glory to be 'glory =APP'. This does not affect annual glory nor combat glory in any way but to gaining glory from skill use.

I really like that idea. I very strongly believe any game that uses stats should have a measurable benefit or consequence for each step in the score. This is a simple and elegant way to make APP less of a dump stat and to make every point count.

Stealing this.


T.

Yeah, that's kind of genius.

I think I've said this before on this forum but my method is to redefine 'ordinary glory' from 10 glory to be 'glory =APP'. This does not affect annual glory nor combat glory in any way but to gaining glory from skill use.

Yes, I remember you suggesting that before, and I too agree that it is a nice idea. APP can use all the help it can get, and this definitely would make it even more useful for a courtier type of character.

Actually... Why not give annual Glory for the APP, too? Or (APP-10)*X? Granted, without a multiplier (X=1) this is not really much, but even a little helps, and it is easy to just add it to annual glory calculations. You could easily add a small multiplier, too, if you wanted to, in order to give it a bit more oomph. Even (APP-10)*5 would only give extra 50 Glory points for APP 20, which is not that unbalancing if you take into account what SIZ 20 is good for in combat. This would allow a courtier character to benefit from his APP even if most of the normal socializing happens off the camera, just like all those famous Traits and Passions are gossiped about off the camera, earning Annual Glory.

I am sure that has been suggested before, too, but unfortunately I can't recall.

Yes, I remember you suggesting that before, and I too agree that it is a nice idea. APP can use all the help it can get, and this definitely would make it even more useful for a courtier type of character.

Actually... Why not give annual Glory for the APP, too? Or (APP-10)*X? Granted, without a multiplier (X=1) this is not really much, but even a little helps, and it is easy to just add it to annual glory calculations. You could easily add a small multiplier, too, if you wanted to, in order to give it a bit more oomph. Even (APP-10)*5 would only give extra 50 Glory points for APP 20, which is not that unbalancing if you take into account what SIZ 20 is good for in combat. This would allow a courtier character to benefit from his APP even if most of the normal socializing happens off the camera, just like all those famous Traits and Passions are gossiped about off the camera, earning Annual Glory.

I am sure that has been suggested before, too, but unfortunately I can't recall.

I don't know if it's been suggested before, but I certainly haven't seen it. Both your and Scarik's innovation are simple, elegant and effective. And... copied. ;)

--Khanwulf

Thanks for the praise. ^^

I also use APP to gauge who is more interesting to approach with sidequests. Its more of a GM call in that case but I figure the more handsome knight will be the first to attract the attention of ladies' favors or those seeking a knight's adi all other things being equal. Obviously Glory plays a primary role there but since my PKs tend to have similar levels that means the higher APP wins ties.

Thanks for the praise. ^^

I also use APP to gauge who is more interesting to approach with sidequests. Its more of a GM call in that case but I figure the more handsome knight will be the first to attract the attention of ladies' favors or those seeking a knight's adi all other things being equal. Obviously Glory plays a primary role there but since my PKs tend to have similar levels that means the higher APP wins ties.

And the opposite as well
Really ugly people are not watched, no one pays as much attention to them, giving them relative "invisibility" in comparison to those stunningly handsome guys