I have never liked Pagans having Lustful as a Religious Trait. It gives me cognitive dissonance since they are still paternalistic and follow primogeniture, and because there are plenty of pagan magical systems that require chastity and/or celibacy. British/Celtic paganism isn't any more lustful or wanton than other pagan traditions and none of the other pagan types are lustful.

My greatest piece of evidence though is in Book of Uther where Merlin was kludged as a British Pagan Christian. If even Merlin isn't a pagan then who is?

So let's compare with the two main pagan alternatives:

Germanic Paganism and Pictish Heathenism.

Saxons:
Generous
Proud
Worldly
Reckless
Indulgent

Picts:
Vengeful
Honest
Arbitrary
Proud
Worldly

Looking at these two and then at the Pagan Traits (less Lustful):
Energetic
Generous
Honest
Proud

It looks like Worldly is a strong contender. They already share Proud with both, Generous with Saxons and Honest with Picts which makes sense as Celts are a cultural bridge between the Germanic peoples of eastern Gaul and the Indigenous peoples of the British Isles. I'd like to rule out any other traits shared by only one of the others andthe defining Traits of Christianity.

So that strikes out:
Chaste
Vengeful
Arbitrary
Reckless
Temperate
Indulgent

Of those the only one that makes me hesitate is Vengeful since it plays such a huge role in Irish myth and its a fatal flaw in opposition to Christianity as Lustful is. And of course are there any enchantresses or witches who aren't vengeful? This breaks down at Merlin again, though, so I think its off the table.

Of the traits not yet named or taken I look at the list and the only one that leaps out at me is Valorous. All the Heroes of Old are exceedingly brave and I think Merlin certainly shows himself to be when he kidnaps Arthur knowing it means his expulsion from court and possibly his death. Th Ladies of the Lake and many other sorceresses likewise are rarely afraid, constantly taunting knights and defying kings despite being easily slain by them with the sword.

Its obviously of critical value to knights and is essentially free points toward Chivalry for which it is a third positive trait for the religion putting it on par with British Christianity which is really just the super-religion. Once you factor in Proud its more akin to Roman Christianity which I prefer as well for rules purposes.

Thoughts before I go any further down this rabbit hole?

My understanding is that Lustful is such a trait because there were several Celtic holidays that hinged around effectively letting young people out to play, and giving them a pass for anything that pops out nine months later.

There's also a LOT of Lustful behavior in the old tales, Irish and Welsh, to draw on.

I'd be rather cautious basing exemplary traits on Merlin: he's been crafted as a GM foil and is not, I think, intended to express his archdruid-ness through behavior. Further, note that Merlin's abduction of Arthur is a KAP item. In the original works Merlin is given fosterage of Arthur and no trial or any scandal results.

The Ladies of the Lake are presented as enchantresses and supposed to be immune from violence for both that reason and their status as women; further, if they show up as guests under hospitality they can insult the king and rail on his knights all they like with confident immunity (it may hit their Hospitality passion, tho)--all of which makes Balin's rash decapitation such a major affront, even though he was just vindicated as a true knight moments before!

Lustful doesn't have to involve losing control and shacking up with any ol' skirt (or, pants), but it could represent a firm appreciation for physicality and expression thereof.

--Khanwulf

Khanwulf gave a good answer on Lustful, but I agree that it is sometimes difficult to reconcile with the fact that the highly Lustful Pagan woman would still be in a very bad position in a society that expects noblewomen to be Chaste.

My take on Worldly is that it should not be part of any religion. All religions ought to be Spiritual, IMHO. The dodge that the Pictish Heathenism uses that spirits are part of this world and hence worshipping spirits is worldly... well, I'd better stop there. :P

I do kinda like the Vengeful idea. Again, a nice contrast with the Christianity, but Forgiving is not one of the Chivalric traits (neither is Chaste), so it is neither a benefit nor a hindrance. (I MIGHT go with Trusting, instead, for a bit more of a 'good guy' religion: giving the stranger the benefit of the doubt, and would combine well with Hospitality Passion.)

Valorous is a matter of the warrior culture, not religion per se. Although I might give it to the Saxons (instead of Worldly), since their whole afterlife is defined by dying in battle, sword in hand. Goes nicely with Reckless, too. ;)

(I totally agree with scarik about Merlin, by the way. If the Archdruid of Britain is not a Pagan, who is???)


So based on this quick reasoning:

Saxons:
Generous
Proud
Valorous
Reckless
Indulgent

Picts:
Vengeful
Honest
Arbitrary
Proud
(Something to replace Worldly, maybe Suspicious?)

Celtic Pagans:
Energetic
Generous
Honest
Proud
Vengeful (or Trusting?)

Christians (I don't have British Christianity in our campaign, but see the heresy below):
Chaste
Forgiving
Just (Roman Church, everyone in their place according to the divine plan) / Merciful (Pelasgian heresy)
Modest
Temperate

Khanwulf, I appreciate your input even when I completely disagree with most of it. The only thing to quibble over though is the lustiness of the old tales. The Bible and Arthurian tales are full of them as well, only when there is another issue is there any real problem with lustfulness.

Morien I like those Saxons and can agree that Worldly doesn't belong in religions though it appears regularly in the books as the Pagan form of Pious. Especially in the magical items in Knights & Ladies.

Suspicious for Picts and Trusting for Pagans gives a basis for why those peoples have always been in contention, so I like that.

With Christianity I'm ok with there being some differences and having it generally be a single trait is the way to go. All should be Chaste and Forgiving and I'm leaning toward Modest as well. Temperate I'm not solid on and I would like to see Generous in there but that's yet another CHivalric Trait and I want it to be tough to make a knight who is both Religious and Chivalrous without any religion having a dominating lead.

I believe that Greg discussed just this topic on his website (http://www.gspendragon.com/pagans1.html).

I think the answer comes down to that it's not real British paganism nor is it supposed to be. Pendragon paganism is worldly in the sense that "It reveres experience over education" (4e Pendragon book). It's lustful not in the sense that you're supposed to go out and have as much sex as you can but in the sense that desire is natural and has a place in your life and you shouldn't shun it unnaturally.

Morien I like those Saxons and can agree that Worldly doesn't belong in religions though it appears regularly in the books as the Pagan form of Pious. Especially in the magical items in Knights & Ladies.


This has been explicitly overruled in Book of the Estate, p. 5:

The Pious/Worldly label has over the years
proved to be somewhat cumbersome and con-
fusing. Hereafter, this Trait pair will be known as
Spiritual/Worldly.
“Spiritual” indicates interest and inclination
towards matters and values of the Unseen World,
while “Worldly” indicates inclination towards the
good things of life and the material world. Yes,
Pagans fall on this scale too. The followers of the
Old Ways should not be considered the ancient
equivalent of atheists or secularists.

Khanwulf, I appreciate your input even when I completely disagree with most of it. The only thing to quibble over though is the lustiness of the old tales. The Bible and Arthurian tales are full of them as well, only when there is another issue is there any real problem with lustfulness.

Morien I like those Saxons and can agree that Worldly doesn't belong in religions though it appears regularly in the books as the Pagan form of Pious. Especially in the magical items in Knights & Ladies.

Suspicious for Picts and Trusting for Pagans gives a basis for why those peoples have always been in contention, so I like that.

With Christianity I'm ok with there being some differences and having it generally be a single trait is the way to go. All should be Chaste and Forgiving and I'm leaning toward Modest as well. Temperate I'm not solid on and I would like to see Generous in there but that's yet another CHivalric Trait and I want it to be tough to make a knight who is both Religious and Chivalrous without any religion having a dominating lead.

Thank you for disagreeing so respectfully.

Dropping back to punt for a moment, let's note that KAP was crafted with several balance tropes in mind, skewing the "ideal" play towards Cymric culture characters and Christian, Chivalric knights. Pursuing anything else is, for players who care, sub-optimal in efficiency and efficacy. Reason? Because the tales--and Mallory in particular--used Cymric, Christian, Chivalric knights as his assumed base; deviation from that normally was explicitly or implicitly a problem. He wrote in order to reinforce social tropes and order that he found appealing as an imprisoned, poor knight. Things like romantic love, carefree adventure, relentless loyalty, and unrestained generosity and hospitality; from the perspective of someone with little, these are all good characteristics in others, at minimum.

Greg bent the setting slightly by making non-Christian characters even a thing. In Mallory religion was assumed, even if some did it very, very badly indeed.

The ideal Christian would exemplify all the virtues, so you can pick a flavor as Morien suggests to try and balance around Chivalric if you want to avoid overlap. At minimum however it would include Forgiving, and really should include Generous--though that overlaps as you note.

Chaste doesn't have to be one of the Christian virtues, emphasized, because as we've observed in this thread the concept is somewhat problematic in how it's understood. A Scripturally sound view on chastity would be that it consists of keeping the physical stuff within mutually agreed and socially affirmed covenants--which means for-life commitments; then, once you have those fences up, go at it like bunnies! Pagan attitudes (keeping in mind that we actually know very little about the real practices of the times) seemed to veer toward either taking down those fences, moving them around in socially agreed ways for religious purposes, and the like. And then there are surviving bits of Celtic law and custom records indicating a rather more focused emphasis on issues of inheritance and behavior than you'd suppose from the previous sentence; it's all a big mess.

Then you have the stories, which often (Welsh and Scripture) consisted of "this guy/gal did that, and such happened" rather than clearly supporting the individuals as exemplars, and it means sorting things out takes a measure of back-to-basic wisdom and discernment.

The Church attitude, if you want to reflect that as the virtue (which would be appropriate to tropes) became both a reaction to perceived licentiousness in Greek/Roman/Pagan society and a mixture with Gnostic attitudes and thought toward the physical as bad and spiritual as good. In that view, physical temptations of any kind were to be rejected as "unholy" and, if necessary for basic survival, were ideally minimized to avoid distractions. Thus by the middle ages you have priests forbidden from marriage and the like.

I think I lost my point along the way, but to regain some semblance of contribution, I think if you were to cut out a religious trait you might do well to remove Chaste/Lustful from both Christian and Pagan sides. Food for thought?

--Khanwulf

I believe that Greg discussed just this topic on his website (http://www.gspendragon.com/pagans1.html).

I think the answer comes down to that it's not real British paganism nor is it supposed to be. Pendragon paganism is worldly in the sense that "It reveres experience over education" (4e Pendragon book). It's lustful not in the sense that you're supposed to go out and have as much sex as you can but in the sense that desire is natural and has a place in your life and you shouldn't shun it unnaturally.

Thanks, its good to reread that. I appreaciate the way it was created but the thing that gets me is still Merlin. If Merlin isn't a pagan then things need to be changed so that he is. That way, my wife will stop arguing with me about it. ^^


This has been explicitly overruled in Book of the Estate, p. 5:

The Pious/Worldly label has over the years
proved to be somewhat cumbersome and con-
fusing. Hereafter, this Trait pair will be known as
Spiritual/Worldly.
“Spiritual” indicates interest and inclination
towards matters and values of the Unseen World,
while “Worldly” indicates inclination towards the
good things of life and the material world. Yes,
Pagans fall on this scale too. The followers of the
Old Ways should not be considered the ancient
equivalent of atheists or secularists.

How did I forget that? That solves one issue for me and does lend itself toward removing Worldly from all religions. Unless one made a Secular Humanist religion of course. :p


Thank you for disagreeing so respectfully.

I think I lost my point along the way, but to regain some semblance of contribution, I think if you were to cut out a religious trait you might do well to remove Chaste/Lustful from both Christian and Pagan sides. Food for thought?

--Khanwulf

I only cut your quote for space reasons.

I think Christians should still be Chaste since the Gospels and Corinthians spend a lot of time on it. Forgiveness and generosity are also very much things Christ himself extols. I think mercy has a place in most Christian trait lists if only because it ties in with forgiveness and it opposes cruelty. Its also one of the harder ones to have in play since it lets you enemies live to bother you again. Just certainly works as well since it upholds 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's' but its relatively easy to play in my experience as well as being yet another Chivalric Trait. I'd like to cap the crossover traits at 3.

Temperate probably should be on the list to represent resistance to temptations along with Generous and Chaste. With that thinking I'm inclined to say that Christians ough to be:
Chaste
Generous
Forgiving
Temperate

Then you can pick one of: Energetic, Merciful, Just, Modest. Maybe have the GM pick to show the different strains of Christianity present.

KAP3/4's Boy King lists him as a Grail Christian. (Page 129)

KAP3/4's Boy King lists him as a Grail Christian. (Page 129)

Yeah, which is still very very odd that the Archdruid of Britain is not a Pagan.

I also noticed something quite curious in Book of Uther's write-up of Merlin: Chaste 24. This is a bit odd for a wizard who famously falls head over heels in love/lust with Nimue and ends up trapped because of his love/lust. In short, I wouldn't have taken Merlin as someone with this high Chaste.